talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

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talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Drool_bucket » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:07 am

So Alex whined on Twitter about the old Hag.

please expand.... she is often considered underpowered by the unwashed masses.... I'd like to hear what your take was facing her?

what did you think should be FAQ'd?
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Thunderjaw » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:25 am

He wasn't a fan of getting someone obeyed to end a walk action in Juju's engagement, then Matt flipping the WP duel and cheating in a failure. :)
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Drool_bucket » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:36 am

ah, yeah, that. its pretty brutal, for sure.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby afeinman » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:49 am

That, plus she is basically an automatic 3VP for Entourage. It would take an awful fuck-up for a Zoraida player to let her get exposed and hunted down, and then 15" of ignores-terrain motion plus, what, 10" of running if you need it, means you're pretty much guaranteed to get that scheme. At least, it's felt that way the last few times I've played against or with her.

The insane Ca on the Obey is also surprising. I'm not used to Masters being good at stuff; my Masters are generalists. But the thing about Obey is that it's kind of...whatever you need. Need someone moved? easy. Need someone dead? works for that too. Need a scheme marker removed? Okay. Need a Lure? does that too. So a great stat for that is like having a great stat for 3-5 other powers.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Drool_bucket » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:20 am

interesting.

Yeah, the terrifying thing can be a hard swallow, its a core mechanic to the Obey Masters. (four Masters have Obey, Perdita and Brewie are suit-less and Hamelin and Z have the mask baked in)

As for Obey itself yes it is a powerful ability. I always define Obey as one of the two "core" mechanics that Malifaux features a lot of (along with Lure) that most other games don't have. Movement is usually really powerful in this game.

But, as for the Entourage thought. Yeah, sure, she can score that pretty easily, but that can be said about many Masters with various schemes... look no farther than Plant Explosives with McMourning or Make them Suffer with Leveticus!

My point is this, and its not directly solely at you, Alex, but your observations are exactly why I feel that in Malifaux you really have to build a crew *after* strats, schemes and deployment, as well as the board layout and opponent's faction, has been determined. Sure, there is a real benefit to just wanting to "play a Master" to figure it out, but don't expect a level playing field if you are.

I play this game for 10vp everytime. Not that others don't, but I play it so that I have the best chance of getting a full 10 and then hoping to hurt my opponent enough to deny him 1 less VP. So, after seeing what was going on last night, I would have probably done Misaki with Assassinate (cause she can certainly run down the old Hag) and the bonus of denying Entourage would have sealed the game....

anyways, I'm rambling. We don't really discuss enough of Malifaux here and there certainly is tons to talk about with the game. We also don't really see enough play of enough Masters in different styles, so discussing things AAR-style is something I enjoy...
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Drool_bucket » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:23 am

oh, and last comment about Obey. Sure, works great in many cases when a skilled player is using it, extra AP where you need it is awesome. But generally speaking, converting Master AP into something else isn't always the "most powerful," when you compare some other Master's Actions they take. Sure, Z can paralyze a model with some set up... Vik of Ashes just kills that model.

So, yeah, Prompt (which is a style of Obey) is brutal when Collette is turning her AP into Howard Langston attacks. But understanding that killing Howard is now a priority offsets that... and I think you may have run into that issue last night, not seeing the Bad Juju Terrifying trick coming and getting caught out in it. Next time you'll be a lot more wary and the results will be a lot more different.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby afeinman » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:11 am

Yes, but--taking down Juju is very hard, and obviously BRM wasn't going to let me ignore him. (Though he only got to claw 1 model, his presence was more important.)

That being said, with Shenlong pushing people around and granting them AP (via Fast), I'm used to "trade a Master's AP for a minion's". But what adds to the power is the range coupled with Zoraida's beast-form mobility. For 2 AP she can Obey basically any friendly model on the board unless you placed yourself really poorly, and with an almost guaranteed chance of success, or enemy models with only a slightly lower chance of success. A 15" fly plus, what, 12"(?) Obey, is 27". In contrast Shenlong's sphere of control is 8", or 6" if you want to keep folks in his buff-bubble, for a 12-14" effective sphere.

It's not just the abilities, it's the combination of circumstances: range, confidence in it going off, and flexibility.

The other kick in the nuts was giving BRM a hand of literally 20 cards during one turn, because of Beguile. I'm not sure how that was intended to work, but it works GREAT right now, especially when you can earn yourself cards by Obeying the beguiled models. I'm not sure if it would feel more balanced if it were (a) only 1 model at a time (b) only during the models' Activation or (c) harder to pull off, but for that game it always happened, it had excellent range allowing him to target unactivated models repeatedly, and

Ironically my crew seemed very well-suited to the mission and opponent, even having a decent average WP. If I'd taken my "stock" build (ninja-heavy + archers/snipers, etc.) I might have handled his Crew better at the cost of some mission-scoring ability--but one doesn't get to know the opponent's Crew before picking.

There is NO comparison with MtS / Leveticus. Does he get to auto-kill a minion each turn without flipping cards? And with McM's broken marker placement and Plant Explosives, yeah, it's harder to dodge, but your opponent can still try to be cagey about getting close. Entourage, I guess you could play goalie somehow? But that's hard at the end of turn 5.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby anumberone » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:26 am

Zoraida is my go to in Neverborn now for strats like Headhunter because of Obey. And Animal Form is great for entourage and avoiding assassination or to drop on a protect territory marker late game. Kudos to Cassidy for using Bad Juju without eternal fiend. That's like riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

I think the game plays best when you have all the options in your faction to choose from. When I played Gremlin Zoraida last year I didn't have a lot of models. She seemed stronger in Neverborn partially because I have most of the Neverborn faction.

If you want to talk about a master who can efficiently hand out ap, look no further than McCabe. Pushing his guys, giving them regenerate, nimble or insane melee attacks. And for a 4 of tomes, do it again!

Also, I must reiterate, if you see Mama Z again focus on her, literally and figuratively. It negates proper manners and you still have a positive against her defense 5. She can end your activation when you do moderate and severe on a mask but it's worth doing. Especially with a katakana sniper. Why you don't use one in every list is baffling to me.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Drool_bucket » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:31 am

Animal Form is a (2) action from a limited upgrade... so one Obey anywhere for a Masters activation?

and yes, Levi basically hunts and kills Minions in one activation unless you have multiple BJ in your deck...

Beguile (Bewitch?) is strong. There are limited ways around it, however.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby afeinman » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:11 pm

I really hate "why don't you always take this model" models. If a model's that good...it's broken.

The sniper's decent, especially with Shenlong, but in the end, just a man; he doesn't ignore cover or engagement or armor, nor shoot off Upgrades, nor hand out Paralyze or even Slow (unless you're really close). In comparison to some other faction snipers it feels desperately out-matched. I do finally have an official model for it now, though, so I'll be fielding one more in the future.

Didn't realize fly was a (2); that's slightly better, but still a key Obey or a high-chance Entourage.

Levi: don't there have to be...minions...on the board...possibly near him? Or does he teleport and kill them without flipping cards?
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Drool_bucket » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:58 pm

afeinman wrote:I really hate "why don't you always take this model" models. If a model's that good...it's broken.

well, not entirely true. No model, but the Mech Rider, IMO, is broken good. But certain models just bring such useful actions and abilities that they really do find their way into most lists... Belles, Snipers (Katanaka and Trappers), Nurses all come to mind.

afeinman wrote:The sniper's decent, especially with Shenlong, but in the end, just a man; he doesn't ignore cover or engagement or armor, nor shoot off Upgrades, nor hand out Paralyze or even Slow (unless you're really close). In comparison to some other faction snipers it feels desperately out-matched. I do finally have an official model for it now, though, so I'll be fielding one more in the future.

Hans is still the best sniper inthe game. He is also the most expensive. Katanaka are the next best, because there gun is the same as the Trappers but they some more umfph to them. But by default, 28 or 36 range is very powerful in this game.

afeinman wrote:Didn't realize fly was a (2); that's slightly better, but still a key Obey or a high-chance Entourage.

It is good, not gonna lie. But everyone has good shit!

afeinman wrote:Levi: don't there have to be...minions...on the board...possibly near him? Or does he teleport and kill them without flipping cards?

So, in MtS, if they have no Peons or Minions you auto score the point. Levi does it amazingly well because he jumps around, both by re-birthing out of Waifs in an area of the board and then having access to a 10" jump from their to get LoS. Then he as so many positivies on a Ca 7 stat that can't be reduced and ignores everything and has situational triggers that, yes, basically if you have 11 Wds or less and can't prevent with SS you are probably dead. I'll show younext time we play!
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby Thunderjaw » Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:03 pm

It's important to note that the good models find their way into lists because of WHAT they do just as much/more so then how well they do it. I mean how well is a factor, but you're taking the model because you need X and you'll take anything that can do it...

Belles are a great example of this. As a Rezzer, I pretty much always had one Belle in my list and usually had two. Rezzers have essentially no shooting aside from the occasional reanimated guild guardsman and you're not winning with those. We rely on pulling things out of your camp and murdering them, often with a liberal application of Punk Zombies. And every crew suffers from similar issues. Molly needs to pull you into the murderball. So does Nico. McMourning wants to yank people into Poison. Seamus wants you pulled into alleys so he can slit your throat. This recurring theme means some of the same utility pieces get used a ton. If they were worse at their job they'd still be used... cause the niche their filling is vital...

I've had games before where all my Belles did was spam Slow all over the place and never lured anyone, and I've had games where all they did was lure people and drag them to their deaths. The games where they slow, no one says a word. The games where they lure... "fuckin' Belles".

Flip to Neverborn... Beckoners are basically slightly overcosted Belles... I've never used a Beckoner before Thursday with Neverborn as I never felt I needed that niche role like I did/do with Rezzers.

So to me, the must haves are more about roles and less about power levels. But the other side of the table seems to always have it's share of power levels just like mine does.
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Re: talk to us about Zoriada, Alex

Postby anumberone » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:47 am

Being able to hit a model from across the board is extremely useful. Marc's crew Thursday had 2 Austringers, which were perfect for Guard the stash. Whittle away at my guys from a distance, hopefully unmolested. My answer was a trapper with from the shadows who neutralized one of them by turn two and forcing the other one to move forward until I killed him with Myranda. Two Austringers can feel horribly broken if you have no answer to them.

He also took the Pale Rider for his bodyguard, maybe the best model he could of taken. I was unable to kill him because he held back long enough to build up his defense trigger but I did whittle his wounds down by bouncing blasts off of Lady J. He's another model that can feel broken if you can't get around that defense trigger.

I ended up losing mostly due to inexperience with my crew and choosing a much more difficult scheme pool. I focused too much of Joss's ap on the very hard to hit guardian instead of murdering his Peacekeeper and having my gunsmith around longer.

We both picked mostly the best things we could with the schemes and strat(I had picked my crew when I thought I was playing Greg) and had a very close game. Marc just played better, was more familiar with his crew and overall made better decisions.
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